A few general truths to keep in mind in the wake of Climategate.
By John Derbyshire
The ninth commandment is: trust science. By this we mean a true science, based
on objectively established criteria and agreed foundations, with a rational
methodology and mature criteria of proof — not the multitude of pseudo-sciences
which, as we have seen, have marked characteristics which can easily be detected
and exposed. Science, properly defined, is an essential part of civilization. To
be anti-science is not the mark of a civilized human being, or of a friend of
humanity. Given the right safeguards and standards, the progress of science
constitutes our best hope for the future, and anyone who denies this proposition
is an enemy of science.
— Paul Johnson, Enemies of Society (1977)
Well, of course we all do trust science. We trust Bernoulli’s Principle every time we get on a plane; we trust celestial mechanics when we take the kids outside to watch a scheduled lunar eclipse; we trust subatomic physics when we relax with an iPod; we trust the laws of chemistry every time we strike a match; we trust the theories of Special and General Relativity when we consult a GPS gadget; we trust natural selection when we fret about drug-resistant disease strains or pesticide-resistant crop infestations; we trust molecular biology every time we pop a pill. Our trust in science is well-nigh unbounded. We hardly draw a breath without trusting science. Paul Johnson’s injunction would seem to be superfluous.
How odd, then, that some high proportion of readers bristled when reading Johnson’s words — or, very likely, just on seeing my title. Why get heated at being told to do something you have done a hundred times a day, all your life?
This is, of course, in the context of leaked e-mails from the Climate Research Unit at an English university — which is itself in the context of the climate-change panic (née the global-warming panic) that has been promoted by a subset of Western elites for a dozen or more years now. The scientists who generated those e-mails have all been helping to promote the climate-change thesis — the notion that humanity faces some great climatic catastrophe if we don’t radically change the way we use energy.
The normal thing at this point would be for the writer to declare a position on that underlying thesis. Is the earth’s climate changing to humanity’s dire detriment, or isn’t it? If it is, are the changes due to human activity, or aren’t they? In either case, is there anything we can do about it at acceptable cost and without unforeseen harm?
I have to cop out on that. As best I can judge, our planet probably is enjoying a long-term warming trend, though with much local variation and temporary lulls and reversals sometimes lasting for years. The Arctic certainly seems to have been losing ice these past 30 years, for instance (Figure 3 here). That these changes are human-made is not clear to me. The argument that they are rests largely on theories about the overall effect of changing CO2 levels, but those theories themselves are open to reasonable doubt. There is even more doubt about the consequences of any change that might be happening; and even where doubt is minimal, the consequences are counterintuitive. It is generally thought, for example, that an ice-free Arctic will leave Europe colder (by killing the Gulf Stream).
And the science is heavily polluted by politics. The climate-change legions are recruited mainly from the Western Left-intelligentsia, their kitbags stuffed with all the sub-Marxist and ethno-masochist flapdoodle of the modern academy. They hate capitalism, they hate Western civilization, and they hate their own ancestors. The kind of dramatic social engineering implicit in the phrase “combating climate change” is emotionally appealing to them.
Downstream from these ideologues are opportunist politicians (if you’ll pardon a pleonasm), too dimwitted to understand the ideology — let alone the science! — but eager to ride the climate-change wave to power and wealth. These pols find the gimcrack formulas of postmodernist Hesperophobia mighty handy for whipping up support from Bobo academy graduates and aggrieved ethnic groups. They control departments of state, which hand out grants and jobs to ideologically friendly researchers, corrupting the whole scientific process.
Nor is climate-change skepticism free of politics. There are big, rich, powerful interests hostile to the climate-change cult: Big Coal, Big Oil, and the Big BRICs. Given the stakes, it would be astonishing if they did not have their own paid shills in the game. I’d guess that there has been some busy deleting of e-mails these past few days at Mogul corporate HQ and BRIC embassies.
Now, somewhere under that political scrum is a rugby ball of scientific truth. Which side will get possession at last, is beyond my ability to figure. Hence the cop-out. I can, though, point out a number of general truths worth bearing in mind when relating this present flap to the larger business of science. My hope here is to wipe away the scowl you scowled at my title and P. J.’s opening remarks.
1. Settled vs. unsettled science. The examples in my first paragraph up there are all of settled science — theories sufficiently well-tested and robust that we can be confident they model the real world to high accuracy. These theories have no competitors. You can of course always find a contrarian, even on such thoroughly settled topics as heliocentrism or relativity, but no working scientist is losing any sleep over their arguments. Contrarianism in this zone is a social and psychological (occasionally psychiatric) phenomenon, not a scientific one.
Science is a lighted clearing in the forest. Around the well-lit central area exists a penumbra — a ring of more or less shadowed ground. Beyond that is the infinite dark domain of our ignorance. Scientists toil to enlarge the lighted area — the zone of settled science. This is the science Paul Johnson wants us to trust. This is the science that we do trust. In the penumbra, though, there is dimness enough for all kinds of malarkey. This is the preferred playground of ideologues, politicians, and crooks. This is where the climate-change battles are being fought.
2. Trust science, but don’t trust scientists. Scientists are human and subject to the same weaknesses, failings, and fixations as the rest of us. Most science research goes on in the universities of the Western world, where the dominant ideology is the leftist, anti-Western one noted above. Math and science people usually don’t care much about politics. Their subjects are too difficult, demand too much in the way of mental resources, to leave anything over for thinking deeply about politics. They breathe in the atmosphere of the academy, though, and it poisons their blood, the more easily just because they don’t think about it much.
Even without the political pressures of the climate-change game, scientists are often dishonest. The dishonesty occasionally slops over into downright crookedness, but discreet data manipulation is much more common. An important thing to remember here is that practically all of this is done to “improve” results the researcher believes to be true, not to put over something he believes false. (Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics, was accused of “improving” his data in this way.) As reprehensible as the behavior of the CRU e-mailers surely was, it tells us nothing about the existence or non-existence of climate change.
Science contains a core magisterium, which we can and do trust. It also contains a hinterland of more or less “open” enquiries, where you need to peer very carefully at the numbers before extending trust — where, indeed, it is wisest to withhold trust altogether until the smoke of battle has cleared. Public funds should likewise be withheld from these areas, though any particular problems arising from climate change should be dealt with if and when they show up.
3. Consensus vs. contrarians. In any region of science there is usually, at any given time, a consensus position and a contrarian position. For theories solid enough to be part of the magisterium, contrarianism is out at the social fringes, as noted. In less settled areas, the contrarians themselves are working scientists, with data they can bring forward to challenge the consensus data. This is certainly the case with climate science. Here, for example, are 31,000 scientists who think that
there is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide,
methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable
future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of
the Earth’s climate.
The temptation for outsiders is to side with the underdogs, the contrarians. The temptation is especially strong for conservatives, who are suspicious of bossy technocratic elites possessed of esoteric knowledge. We are inclined to think that the shape of our light bulbs, the capacity of our toilet cisterns, and the axle weight of our automobiles should be decided between ourselves and the relevant vendors, on market principles, not dictated to us by bureaucrats.
The temptation should be resisted. Contrarians do indeed sometimes turn out to be right, but that’s not the way to bet. Consensus exists for a reason, and a consensus should put up some spirited resistance to being overthrown.
Newtonian mechanics says that the orbit of Uranus ought to look like this. In fact, it looks like this. Eeek! Newtonian mechanics must be wrong! Actually, no; it’s just that there is a hitherto-unseen planet disturbing the data. A well-established consensus doing useful work should not be blown over by a puff of breath, or by scattered cases of contradictory data. Neptune-style possibilities have to be exhausted. There should be longstanding problems defying explanation. There needs to be a coherent alternative theory available — such as the one Einstein proposed to replace Newtonian mechanics.
Contrarians should be made to fight for their victories. If they fight on fair ground, wielding superior data and arguments, they will win, and become the new consensus. There have been scientific revolutions aplenty, and there will surely be more. Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Lavoisier, Faraday, Darwin, Pasteur, Planck, Einstein, Hubble, and Wegener are not revered for their defense of a consensus. To overthrow a consensus, or force major changes on it, is the dream of every young scientist. Older scientists may settle for tenure, rank, political patronage, and a quiet life, but there will always be younger ones ready to fight from the contrarian corner.
4. Small stakes. Let me deflate that last parallel a little. While the political and financial stakes in the climate-change controversy are huge — power, jobs, money, economic transformation — the scientific stakes are small.
Climate change is not an overarching theory like Newton’s mechanics or Faraday-Maxwell electromagnetism. It’s an interpretation of some data — data fuzzy and uncertain enough to be capable of other interpretations. The intellectual stakes here are small. Dogged defense of the phlogiston theory of combustion post-Lavoisier would make you look like an idiot; dogged defense of one plausible interpretation of iffy climatological data, against another one equally plausible, just makes you look mistaken. It is correspondingly easier on the consciences of researchers.
5. The mills grind slow. You may say: “That’s all very well; but plainly we need some better method for weighing the claims of contrarians against the claims of the consensus.”
Perhaps we do, but I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for it. It takes nine months to have a baby; there’s no shortcut. Nor is there any way to shorten the process by which scientific truth emerges — a process at least as messy and painful as parturition, and lasting a great deal longer. It took 300 years (Copernicus to Bessel) to resolve the issue of stellar parallax, the last obstacle to the dispositive establishment of heliocentrism.
Paul Johnson is right: We should trust science. We have no other way to find out truths about the natural world, and the successes of science, both epistemic and practical, are tremendous.
That is to speak of science as a magisterium, though: as a core of settled knowledge, of theories — heliocentricity, the circulation of the blood, electromagnetism, natural selection, the Periodic Table, continental drift, cosmic expansion — supported by great masses of evidence, contradicted by none, fruitful in prediction, and without serious competitors.
The mills of science grind slow, too slow for political enthusiasts. They deliver the goods at last, though. And what goods they are! Compare the amenities of our lives now with those of our ancestors 350 years ago before the scientific revolution. Compare, too, the worldwide condominium of shared understandings — the de-tribalization of thought that science has brought about. Time was, not so long ago, that educated people in Beijing, Bombay, Berlin, and Bogotá had different creation myths, different explanations for natural phenomena, different treatments for bodily failings.
Now we all share the same knowledge of the natural world, the same systematic and clear understandings. Those are the accomplishments of science, Western civilization’s great gift to humanity. To turn against science is folly, a lurch back towards superstition, tribalism, and barbarism. For a person of the West to turn against science is also cultural treason, a form of ethno-masochism as shamefully deplorable as the postmodernist rejection of reason and language that has poisoned the faculties of arts and humanities in our universities. “To be anti-science is not the mark of a civilized human being, or of a friend of humanity.” I completely agree.
mis webiväljaandes see on?
ReplyDeletearvamuslugu ilmus autori loata täies ulatuses webiväljaandes "Kliima6htu protestiblogi"
ReplyDeleteoriginaali avaldas national review online: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MzYyOTVhZTAzNTFlN2VmM2EyMDgxZWIxOTAzNmViZGY=
John Derbyshire viitab oma artiklis John McLaughlin artiklile "Politics and Greenhouse Gases", mis omakorda baseerub "Falsifiation Of The Atmospheric CO2 Greenhouse Effects within The Frame Of Physics, Gerlich, G. and R. D. Tscheuschner" teaduspaberil, mis on saanud kaks vastuväidet ja pole läbi läinud.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.realclimate.org/wiki/index.php?title=G._Gerlich_and_R._D._Tscheuschner
muidugi võib see kõik olla vasakpoolsete teadlaste konspiratsioon maailma vallutamise eesmärgil.
John Derbyshire loost ei tulene "reasonable doubt" loogikat kuid tuleneb poliitiline hoiak:
ReplyDeleteAnd the science is heavily polluted by politics. The climate-change legions are recruited mainly from the Western Left-intelligentsia, their kitbags stuffed with all the sub-Marxist and ethno-masochist flapdoodle of the modern academy. They hate capitalism, they hate Western civilization, and they hate their own ancestors. The kind of dramatic social engineering implicit in the phrase “combating climate change” is emotionally appealing to them.
kas sinu arvates on artikkel vasakpoolsete teadlaste konspiratsioonist maailma vallutamise eesmärgil?
ReplyDeleteJep, John Derbyshire kirjeldab paljude kliimaaktivistide poliitilist hoiakut, ma arvan, et see on põhjendatud ja teatud mõju sellel hoiakul praegusele poliitikale siiski on. Sellega tuleb arvestada.
ReplyDeletema töötasin enda jaoks välja süsteemi et kontrollin kohe ära mis teaduspaberitele nende esseistide arvamused baseeruvad. siis saab kohe selle prügikasti visata.
ReplyDelete"I have to cop out on that. As best I can judge, our planet probably is enjoying a long-term warming trend, though with much local variation and temporary lulls and reversals sometimes lasting for years. The Arctic certainly seems to have been losing ice these past 30 years, for instance (Figure 3 here). That these changes are human-made is not clear to me. The argument that they are rests largely on theories about the overall effect of changing CO2 levels, but those theories themselves are open to reasonable doubt. There is even more doubt about the consequences of any change that might be happening; and even where doubt is minimal, the consequences are counterintuitive. It is generally thought, for example, that an ice-free Arctic will leave Europe colder (by killing the Gulf Stream)."
selles osas on räme viga sees. käisin vaatasin viidata artikli üle ja see räägib mingist kohutavast teaduspaberist mis on maha tehtud. jälle üks esseist räägib millestki millest ta ei tea midagi. satanistliku teksti generaatorid.
kui see John Derbyshire essee ei ole teaduslik siis ei jää muud üle kui tembeldada ta poliitiliseks. ja mina lugesin siit sellise poliitilise hoiaku välja.
hetkel on enamus teemast poliitiline, IPCC on ju ka poliitika ja ega poliitikas midagi halba ei ole.
ReplyDeleteOletame, et konkreetne viide ei tõesta reasonable doubt vajalikkust (isiklikult ei oska tõesti hinnata, kumb on tõesem, kas viide või kaks vastuviidet). Kas ka järgmine lause on vale: "There is even more doubt about the consequences of any change that might be happening; and even where doubt is minimal, the consequences are counterintuitive."
mees ju õigustab, miks "I have to cop out on that" ja pärast toob vägagi tervemõistuslikud teemakohased märkused, mis puudutavad teadust. Minu skepsis (cop-out) põhineb üldjoontes samasugusel arusaamal.
kui nüüd ikka väga väga kriitiliselt mõelda siis mida siin on tegelikul tehtud.
ReplyDeleteJohn Derbyshire viitab John McLaughlin artikile Politics and Greenhouse Gases, mis ilmus 27. novembril 2009.a.
John McLaughlin kirjutab:
"Following an extensive theoretical analysis, two German physicists have determined that the term greenhouse gas is a misnomer and that the greenhouse effect appears to violate basic laws of physics."
Siit saab lugeda mis selle sakslaste "tõestusega" teadusmaailmas toimunud on:
http://rabett.blogspot.com/2009/04/die-fachbegutachtung-below-is-elis.html
See on täiesti maha tehtud ja nüüd enne Kopenhaagenit võtab jälle üks American Thinker väljaande esseist sellel teemal sõnal ja kohe läheb uus lollus liikvele.
Vot see on poliitika.
enne kui lingi avan:
ReplyDeletemillised on sinu rabett-blogspot allika taustauuringu tulemused? prügikasti või mitte?
see on äärmiselt lihtne. ainuke võimalus on oma kriitilist teekonda alustada tõeliste kliimateadlaste webilehelt.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.realclimate.org/
seal on otsingusüsteem. sisestame selle saksa teadlase, saame realclimate wiki lehe
http://www.realclimate.org/wiki/index.php?title=G._Gerlich_and_R._D._Tscheuschner
kus on info selle teadustöö kohta, vastuväited ja kommentaarid.
nüüd on muidugi kartus et terve see kliimateadlaste pesa on korrupeerunud kurjamid mis on ka "skeptikute" väide kuid kust siis oma otsinguid alustada.
politiseeritud webiväljaannete seast? kahjuks on aeg näidanud et nemad pidevalt valetavad.
"nüüd on muidugi kartus et terve see kliimateadlaste pesa on korrupeerunud kurjamid mis on ka "skeptikute" väide kuid kust siis oma otsinguid alustada."
ReplyDeletenagu olen juba maininud, selles tavainimese (sh. minu) põhiline probleem ongi. kindlasti ei saa hetkel tugineda politiseeritud webiväljaannetele, samuti ei saa lõplikult usaldada neid kliimamuutuste kohta kirjutavaid kliimateadlasi (77 tk.?), kellel ühe uuringu tulemusel 97% konsensus põhineb, eriti CRU e-mailide valguses, aga ka üldfilosoofiliselt (modelleerimise ja algandmete probleem) ja teaduslikult (mõned mittehullud ja väljaostmata teadlased ehk siiski on, kes mittekonsensuslikku seisukohta omavad).
lähipäevadel selgus ei saabu, aga küll ta saabub, ja ainult tänu teadusele. nõustun, et tõenäosus on konsesuse poolel, nagu kirjutas ka Derbyshire.
AGA - kui kliimamuutuse konsensus on olulises osas korrektne, siis sellest tulenev poliitika on juba teine teema. proovime neid asju eraldi arutada.
minul pole powerit, et muuta sinusse juurdunud "skepitlise" ja "konspiratiivseid" seisukohti. küll aga võid sa ise seda teha kui tahad.
ReplyDeletemulle tundub, et sa oled juba algselt ära otsustanud.
loe seda infot koos KOMMENTAARIDEGA:
Where’s the data?
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/wheres-the-data/
The CRU hack: Context
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the-cru-hack-context/
The CRU hack
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the-cru-hack/
paar päeva läheb selleks aega aga uus arusaam on seda väärt
minul pole powerit, et muuta sinusse juurdunud seisukohta, et minul on lõplikult juurdunud "skepitlised" ja "konspiratiivsed" seisukohad kliimateaduse osas. sinu tundmus, et ma oled juba algselt ära otsustanud, on vale.
ReplyDeletemeie erinevus on selles, et sinu jaoks on "climategate" teema, minu jaoks mitte.
ReplyDeletema tean mille põhjal mina olen oma arvamuse kujundanud ja minu hing on rahul.
ma ei tea mille põhjal sina oled oma arvamuse kujundanud, et "climategate" on adekvaatne teema.
mehed, kogu see kliima6htu teema on omandanud kolossaalsed ja hüsteerilised mõõtmed.
ReplyDeleteDopey temale omase jäägitu andumusega on kaevanud läbi hunniku informatsiooni ja (mulle tundub), püüab anda edasi sõnumit, et "tuleb tegutseda kohe, sest mudelid näitavad, et tagajärjed on liiga õudsad, et jääda ootama". Evides revolutsionääri mentaliteeti ja protesti establishmendi ("sauruste") vastu, samas püüdes end peita tõsiteadusliku, ratsionaalse ja tasakaaluka jälgija maski taha.
Randroid ei püüa maskeerida, et ta on skeptiline, samuti pole ta midagi "ära otsustanud", vaid lihtsalt tema meele muutmiseks läheb vaja "rigorous framework of peer-peer-peer-peer reviewed and generally accepted theory about climate change". Ja seda meil ilmselgelt hetkel ei ole. Jah, see on minu kui asjatundmatu hinnang olukorrale: praegu on lahinguväli debattidest pungil ja konsensuse olemasolu väitmine on klassifitseerijate näilik ning kunstlik konstrukt.
Minus tekitab Cinoomi initsieeritud revolutsiooniline õhkkond väga ebamugava tunde. Nimelt, konspiratsioonide konspiratsioonid ning pidepunktide kadumine tekitab hoiaku, et ma ei saa mitte milleski kindel olla ning kedagi usaldada. Kui see on taotlus, siis on Cinoom varsti võitmas.
minu ainuke eesmärk on näidata teile lõpuks kust kohast teie pidepunkt alguse saab. ma loodan et seejärel tekib paanika ja väga ebamugav tunne. seejärel võib selle kliimaga juhtuda mida iganes.
ReplyDeletetõde meie isikute seisukoha lätte suhtes tuleb olema valus.
minu esimene pidepunkt cop-out/kahtlustavale suhtumisele saab alguse tunnetusest, et teema on niivõrd ideoloogiline-poliitiline, et teaduslik tõde (niivõrd kui seda on võimalik praegu väita) varjutub diskussioonis.
ReplyDeletelisaks on mul eelnevalt kujunenud välja teatud eelarvamused:
* inimvõimetel ja -teadmistel on piirid
* põrgutee on sillutatud heade kavatsustega
* poliitiline aktivism on ohtlik
* keerulise süsteemi prognoosimine on võimatu
* jms.
kindlasti ei ole ma ideoloogiaprillideta puhas leht, kes ainult ülima ratsionaalsusega maailma vaatleb.
aga C mõtleb kindlasti mingit muud seisukohalätet. olen omastanud fossiilirahast kinni makstud seisukohad? olen doubt-machine'i ohver?
sellega seoses kuulasin ükspäe üht Randroid-i kompilatsiooni, mis algab jutuga stiilis: "... The thing that scares me the most, is that noone, absolutely noone.... that NOBODY is in control!...".
ReplyDeleteSee steitment viskab kõik maailmakorra konspiratsiooniteooriad puu taha, samas mööndes, et igaüks ajab oma asja tulenevalt oma raamidest ja keegi ei saa aru "suurest pildist" ega hakka kunagi saama. Kõik me kobame pimeduses. Every construct can be destructed. Ehk konspiraatorid üritavad tekitada hirmu kuidas keegi kuskil valitseb ja jagab, ent hoopis teadmine, et pole konspiratsiooni, on see, mis peaks hirmutama. Eriti neid kes konspiratsiooniteooriad kergelt omaks võtavad.
minu püüan rohkem vaadata üldpilti - kust kuhu ja kuidas on inimkond oma arengus liikunud seega:
ReplyDelete* inimvõimetel ja -teadmistel on piirid
* põrgutee on sillutatud heade kavatsustega
* poliitiline aktivism on ohtlik
* keerulise süsteemi prognoosimine on võimatu
* jms.
ei oma minu jaoks erilist kaalu.
Küsimused:
* inimvõimetel ja -teadmistel on piirid
Kuhu tõmmata piir, millal me piir on kääte jõudnud, kuidas piiri ära tunda, kas piir on käes, mida see üldse tähendab.
* põrgutee on sillutatud heade kavatsustega
Kas paradiisitee on sillutatud halbade kavatsustega?
* poliitiline aktivism on ohtlik
Poliitiline passivism on parem?
* keerulise süsteemi prognoosimine on võimatu
kas on jõutud piirini? kas prognoos on lõppenud?
Mida ma lõpuks näidata tahaks on see kuidas teadus religiooni produtseerib, kuidas ühel hetkel on kerge võtta "teadusmehe" positsioon kuid siis kui teaduses toimub paradigmamuutus jäädakse kinni vanasse "religioossesse" süsteemi.
Mul on tunne, et R eeldab, et me oleme jõudnud kuhugi piirini, millest edasi ei tohiks minna ehk penetreerumine põrgusse.
Siinkohal olen ma Zizekiga ühel meelel - ainuke tee on edasi, penetreeruda sügavamale "põrgusse".
Kõik neid R poolt tõstatatud eelarvamusi saaks ka kasutada hetkel kui Darwin tuli välja oma seisukohaga. Kuidas oleks me sellisel hetkel tavainimesena reageerinud?
* inimvõimetel ja -teadmistel on piirid
ReplyDeleteKuhu tõmmata piir, millal me piir on kääte jõudnud, kuidas piiri ära tunda, kas piir on käes, mida see üldse tähendab.
sa ei saa aru, miks ma oma eelarvamuste disclaimeri kirjutasin? antud kontekstis tähendab see seda, et kui mul palutakse uskuda, et meil on kliimamudel, mis suudab olulises osas täpselt tulevikku ennustada, siis minu eelarvamus sellise asja kohta on skeptiline, kuniks mul tõendusmaterjali rohkem. vastupidine eelarvamus tähendaks, et ma usun, et inimvõimed ja teadmised (näiteks kliimast) on hetkel ideaalsed ja parimad võimalikest ning olemasolevad mudelid (rääkimata ajust endast) suudavad reaalsust ideaalselt kajastada.
* põrgutee on sillutatud heade kavatsustega
Kas paradiisitee on sillutatud halbade kavatsustega?
Ei. Kas tõesti on raskusi selle ütlemise mõistmisega?
* poliitiline aktivism on ohtlik
Poliitiline passivism on parem?
Poliitiline passivism on teatud olukordades vähem ohtlik (vt. eelmine punkt).
* keerulise süsteemi prognoosimine on võimatu
kas on jõutud piirini? kas prognoos on lõppenud?
Ei. Piirini on jõudnud aktivistid, kelle meelest science on ülilõplikult settled. Teadus areneb pidevalt edasi, uute andmete ja mudelitega nihkuvad piirid.
"Mul on tunne, et R eeldab, et me oleme jõudnud kuhugi piirini, millest edasi ei tohiks minna ehk penetreerumine põrgusse."
Sinu tunne on vale.
"Kõik neid R poolt tõstatatud eelarvamusi saaks ka kasutada hetkel kui Darwin tuli välja oma seisukohaga. "
Ei saa. Milliseid ülemaailmseid poliitilisi aktsioone, ressursipaigutusi ja maailmalõpuhoiatusi õigustati evolutsiooniteooriaga?
tegelikult on ainult üks küsimus.
ReplyDeletekas keegi on terve viimase nädala kliimadiskussiooni vältel muutnud mingis seisukohas oma arvamust?
kas seisukoht on kogu aeg olnud üks ja seesama või on see tänaseks päevaks mingi probleemi/küsimuse suhtes muutunud?
kas on olnud muutusi mingis suunas?
ja selles osas ehk tõendusmaterjali kogumises, saab vaid ise seisukoha võtta. nii et siin pole midagi muud rohkem rääkida.
igal ühel on omad tõendusmaterjalid ja ma saan aru et mingi koguse pealt muutub subjekt "skeptikust" "uskujaks".
ja siinkohal tahaks ma loobuda küll positsioonist kellegi ümberveenmisel. R võib vabalt mitte uskuda ja olla skeptiline ning koguda tõendusmaterjali.
mina isiklikult kogusin oma materjali ära.
miks see nädalane tähtaeg seisukoha muutmises oluline on? ma saan aru, et sinu väide on see, et me ei ole üldse võimelised oma seisukohta muutma. ma ei ole nõus, teadusliku materjali suhtes olen ma seda vägagi võimeline tegema. ideoloogilised ja poliitilised põhimõtted on teine teema, seal võib küll surmani vaielda.
ReplyDeleteaga mul on rohkem aega vaja, kasvõi seetõttu, et ma pole teemat kaugeltki nii põhjalikult uurinud kui sina.
jutu järgi on pigem C seisukoht kivisse raiutud, materjal ära kogutud ja hakatakse teemast väljuma.
ja tegelikult - eeldades, et science is settled, siit huvitav diskussioon alles algab :) see on juba ideoloogia ja poliitika, C pole enda seisukohti selles küsimuses vist veel avaldanud? Mida C meelest tegema peaks?
ReplyDeleteKui ma Zizeki jutust õigesti aru sain, siis tuleks liikuda veel suuremasse virtuaali, ehk reaalsusest ennast üldse mitte häirida lasta. Rohelised tahaks seevastu lõpetada co2 emissioonid nii palju kui vähegi võimalik, kuna sellest saab kliima päästetud. Ma olen põhimõtteliselt rohkem spetsiifilise kohandumise pooldaja (kolime kõrgemale, ehitame vee vastu tammid jne). C?
mul polnud kliimateadlaste seisukohast ühest selget ettekujutust. tänaseks saan aru miks ma nii segaduses olin ja miks igal ühel oma versioon on.
ReplyDeletema olen lihtsalt teada saanud milline on teadlaste seisukoht. ennem ma seda ei teadnud.
teemast selles mõttes väljuma, et igal ühel tuleb ikka teha ise oma kodutöö ära. kui on uued seisukohad siis võib neid taas vaadata.
see et sa pole teemat nii põhjalikult uurinud on täiesti mõistetav ja ei peagi. kui sa pole isegi ühtegi oma skeptilist seisukohta muutnud, mitte ühtegi, siis ma tõesti väljun sellest teemast kuna see on meie mõlema aja raiskamine.
kui sa oled ühe seisukoha muutnud, siis ütle see välja.
no aga mul ei olnudki ju enne mingeid konkreetseid kliimaalaseid seisukohti, vaid üldine skepsis seda tüüpi teaduse suhtes ja konkreetne vastumeelsus tuleneva poliitika osas.
ReplyDeletekliimateaduse suhtes on viimasel nädalal skepsis vähenenud, sest ma ei ole näinud ühtegi head allikat, mis konkreetselt vastupidist tõendatult väidaks (co2 seoses). poliitika osas (sh. IPCC) on vastumeelsus suurenenud :)
võibolla niipalju on teaduse mõttes suhtumine muutunud, et enne olin pigem seisukohal, et kliima on varemgi päris palju muutunud (ilma inimeste co2-ta) ja et miks see praegune muutus siis nii oluline on. ja et kui 70ndatel kuulutati uut jääaega, siis hakkas soojenema, nüüd räägitakse kuumenemisest, aga on hoopis viimased 10aastat sutsu külmemaks läinud. neid argumente ma enam ei kasutaks, sest need ei tõesta, et praegune olukord siiski ei ole inimtegevusest põhjustatud.
ReplyDeleteMuuseas, John Derbyshire viimase raamatu pealkiri on "We are all doomed". (see on tõsiselt mõeldud, mitte ta ei kritiseeri viimsepäevakuulutajaid)
ReplyDeletehttp://johnderbyshire.com/Books/Doomed/page.html
Vaadake sisukorda, kõik on perses, aga kliimast ei sõnagi :)
Derbyshire avaldas lugejakirja, mis toetab konsensuse seisukohta ning diskrediteerib ühe Derbyshire allika (mis blogistki enne läbi käinud):
ReplyDeleteDear Mr. Derbyshire,
I am writing regarding your article entitled "Trust Science." While I agree with the thrust and most of the content of the article, I was troubled by your mention of the 31,000 "scientists" who expressed skepticism of global climate change. That number comes from petitions circulated by the Oregon Institute for Science and Medicine, a quirky outfit run by a handful of eccentric scientists past their prime.
The first OISM petition was mailed to an enormous number of scientists (the OISM will not reveal how many), along with a paper formatted to look as though it had been published in PNAS, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS).
The NAS first heard of the petition when its members began calling to ask about it: "The mailing is clearly designed to be deceptive by giving people the impression that the article, which is full of half-truths, is a reprint and has passed peer review," complained Raymond Pierrehumbert, a meteorlogist at the University of Chicago. NAS foreign secretary F. Sherwood Rowland, an atmospheric chemist (and Nobel prize winner), said researchers "are wondering if someone is trying to hoodwink them." NAS council member Ralph J. Cicerone, dean of the School of Physical Sciences at the University of California at Irvine, was particularly offended that [Frederick] Seitz described himself in the cover letter as a "past president" of the NAS. Although Seitz had indeed held that title in the 1960s, Cicerone hoped that scientists who received the petition mailing would not be misled into believing that he "still has a role in governing the organization." [snip]
The NAS issued an unusually blunt formal response to the petition drive. "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal," it stated in a news release. "The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." In fact, it pointed out, its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses. Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."
...
Apparently the OISM has sent the new version of the petition to a huge number of people who hold a Bachelor's degree or higher in science, math, and engineeering. [snip] I myself have received at least three copies. Of the 31,000 signatories of the new petition, 9,000 supposedly hold Ph.D.'s, but few of them are geologists or climatologists. I urge you to investigate the origins of this petition and the nature of the Oregon Institute before propagating the fiction that there is extensive disagreement on global climate change in the scientific community.
On a personal note, I have been teaching ecology and environmental science at the University level for twenty-four years; when I started out I was a global warming skeptic, but I find the amount of evidence now available to be simply overwhelming, in spite of the Climategate fiasco. If I may use an analogy, the Piltdown Man hoax, disgraceful though it was, does not invalidate the science of physical anthropology.
Cordially,
Dan F. Ippolito
Professor of Biology
Mina olen hetkel edasises arutelus nõus lähtuma konsensusepositsioonist, et kliima soojeneb inimtegevuse tagajärjel ja oletama, et amplified-feedback mõjul toimub see lähima saja aasta jooksul kiiremini kui viimase 100 aasta jooksul.
ReplyDeleteLugedes Cinoomi siia postitatud artikleid on jäänud mulje:
* soojenemise peatamine on poliitiliselt võimatu
* Eestile on (geograafiliselt) soojenemine kasulik
Oluline küsimus minu jaoks on ka see, et isegi kui co2 praegu piirata nii suures ulatuses, et soojenemise kasv selle tõttu natukenegi pidurduks, siis kas majanduslikult oleks see otstarbekas (st. kulud soojenemise peatamiseks oleks kokkuvõttes suuremad kui soojenemisest tulenevad kulud)? Ehk joonis, mille tõin postis Copenhagen vs. Adapt.
selles ei ole kahtlustki et CO2 piiramine on majanduslikult mõistlikum kui sama tegevuse jätkamine.
ReplyDeletekõigepealt peame selgeks tegema mida tähendab üldse kliima soojenemine. kuidas geograafilised regioonid hakkavad muutuma, millised on tõendid varasematest juhtumitest kaugest minevikust, kuidas loomade ränne ja elualad hakkavad muutuma jne.
tuleb tähelepanna et me oleme juba I faasis ja I faasi empiirilised tõendid on olemas.
alles siis saama hoomata mida võiks tähendada see majandusele.
küsimus ei ole selles, et globaalne kliima tõuseb kaks kraadi ja eestis on nüüd selle võrra soojem ja sama moodi ka mujal maailmas.
aga liigume rahulikult. ma olen ise juba vaikselt seda kirjandust lugema hakanud ja see pole midagi meeldivat.